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	<title>Comments on: Man says he was fired for ratting out smokers</title>
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		<title>By: mike R</title>
		<link>http://www.hrblunders.com/man-says-he-was-fired-for-ratting-out-smokers/comment-page-1/#comment-12347</link>
		<dc:creator>mike R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:43:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hrblunders.com/?p=1155#comment-12347</guid>
		<description>To Judy Buckley:

Thanks for the clarification.  I apologize for my wording of &quot;a select few.&quot;  I guess our points of view are not so far apart afterall.  

The term &quot;protected class&quot; comes from Title VII of the federal law.  This covers many groups that have been discriminated in the past based on sex, race, nationality, religion.  Age, disability, and veteran status was added through other legislation.  Some states have added &quot;sexual orientation.&quot;
My point is that there are individuals who do not &quot;fit&quot; the legal definition of &quot;protected class&quot; today and so find it difficult to escape discrimination or bias on the job (gays and lesbians, smokers, overweight individuals, economically deprived, etc.)

My second point is that the company can only respond to what it knows or should have known.  It is obvious from the article that Mr. McNeil is in a protected class (otherwise the suit would have been dismissed summarily).  It is not known if the other employee is in a protected class (older worker, veteran, disabled, etc.).  It is pretty apparent that the other employee engaged in boorish behavior with the doll (Not unlike a recent newpaper cartoon showing the president as a monkey).  It is most probable that the friction between these two employees has existed for awhile.  When the employer became aware of this friction, they should have addressed their expectations for both.  This may have been done, it isn&#039;t stated.  What is known is that Mr. McNeil filed a complaint with the state against a co-worker he had problems with over a misdemeanor smoking law.  It is also known that the employer fired this employee three days later for &quot;promoting violence in the workplace.&quot;  It is not known what Mr. McNeil did or said that was considered &quot;promoting violence&quot; but that will be for the courts to decide.  

My guess is that the company addressed the behavior of these two towards each other in the past (probably following the monkey in the noose incident).  I would guess that Mr. McNeil sees himself in the right and expected the company to severely punish the other employee.  When that did not happen, he decided to escalate the situation to involve a state agency to punish the co-worker and the company.  Now that he was terminated, he is seeking the federal government to punish the co-worker and company and to validate him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Judy Buckley:</p>
<p>Thanks for the clarification.  I apologize for my wording of &#8220;a select few.&#8221;  I guess our points of view are not so far apart afterall.  </p>
<p>The term &#8220;protected class&#8221; comes from Title VII of the federal law.  This covers many groups that have been discriminated in the past based on sex, race, nationality, religion.  Age, disability, and veteran status was added through other legislation.  Some states have added &#8220;sexual orientation.&#8221;<br />
My point is that there are individuals who do not &#8220;fit&#8221; the legal definition of &#8220;protected class&#8221; today and so find it difficult to escape discrimination or bias on the job (gays and lesbians, smokers, overweight individuals, economically deprived, etc.)</p>
<p>My second point is that the company can only respond to what it knows or should have known.  It is obvious from the article that Mr. McNeil is in a protected class (otherwise the suit would have been dismissed summarily).  It is not known if the other employee is in a protected class (older worker, veteran, disabled, etc.).  It is pretty apparent that the other employee engaged in boorish behavior with the doll (Not unlike a recent newpaper cartoon showing the president as a monkey).  It is most probable that the friction between these two employees has existed for awhile.  When the employer became aware of this friction, they should have addressed their expectations for both.  This may have been done, it isn&#8217;t stated.  What is known is that Mr. McNeil filed a complaint with the state against a co-worker he had problems with over a misdemeanor smoking law.  It is also known that the employer fired this employee three days later for &#8220;promoting violence in the workplace.&#8221;  It is not known what Mr. McNeil did or said that was considered &#8220;promoting violence&#8221; but that will be for the courts to decide.  </p>
<p>My guess is that the company addressed the behavior of these two towards each other in the past (probably following the monkey in the noose incident).  I would guess that Mr. McNeil sees himself in the right and expected the company to severely punish the other employee.  When that did not happen, he decided to escalate the situation to involve a state agency to punish the co-worker and the company.  Now that he was terminated, he is seeking the federal government to punish the co-worker and company and to validate him.</p>
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		<title>By: Judy Buckley</title>
		<link>http://www.hrblunders.com/man-says-he-was-fired-for-ratting-out-smokers/comment-page-1/#comment-12345</link>
		<dc:creator>Judy Buckley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 18:54:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hrblunders.com/?p=1155#comment-12345</guid>
		<description>Mike R: Your comment that the codes I mentioned affect &quot;only a select few&quot; - I disagree. We are actually all members of a protected class (or if not now, will be - ie, age.)  Even though an employment action isn&#039;t taken on the basis of discrimination, if an employer does not take action when co-workers are harassing someone in one of the &quot;protected classes,&quot; that can lead to a suit. The &quot;select few&quot; you mention makes me envision your place of employment as not very diverse. That&#039;s probably the case in some areas of the country, but if you work near a large population base, there is diversity. Besides, even without racial or religious diversity, I would think most places have both men and women in their employ - and women make up more than half our population, and are in a protected class.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike R: Your comment that the codes I mentioned affect &#8220;only a select few&#8221; &#8211; I disagree. We are actually all members of a protected class (or if not now, will be &#8211; ie, age.)  Even though an employment action isn&#8217;t taken on the basis of discrimination, if an employer does not take action when co-workers are harassing someone in one of the &#8220;protected classes,&#8221; that can lead to a suit. The &#8220;select few&#8221; you mention makes me envision your place of employment as not very diverse. That&#8217;s probably the case in some areas of the country, but if you work near a large population base, there is diversity. Besides, even without racial or religious diversity, I would think most places have both men and women in their employ &#8211; and women make up more than half our population, and are in a protected class.</p>
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		<title>By: mike R</title>
		<link>http://www.hrblunders.com/man-says-he-was-fired-for-ratting-out-smokers/comment-page-1/#comment-12343</link>
		<dc:creator>mike R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 18:28:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hrblunders.com/?p=1155#comment-12343</guid>
		<description>To JG:

Again, no specifics.  So, you disagree with the fact that you need to act based on a &quot;business need&quot; rather than personal bias or feelings; the fact that the employer should orient its employees to expectations and set boundaries on day one (especially on how to register a complaint and how employee&#039;s should treat one another); the fact that this was a concern over a misdemeanor offense that has balooned into a &quot;hostile workplace&quot; claim; the fact that recent laws have placed the employer in the position as an enforcement arm of the government for I-9&#039;s, smoking bans, etc.; or the fact that many forms of boorish and discriminatory behavior are not covered by current law because those targeted (smokers, homosexuals, etc.) are not defined as a &quot;protected class?&quot;

Rather than personal attacks, I would be interested to know what you disagree with and why.  Of course, if you prefer to remain vague, rely on personal attacks and use big words like &quot;pontificate&quot; to vent your feelings, then I will understand.  I mean, I posted over a month ago, so I wonder what has gotten your dander up today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To JG:</p>
<p>Again, no specifics.  So, you disagree with the fact that you need to act based on a &#8220;business need&#8221; rather than personal bias or feelings; the fact that the employer should orient its employees to expectations and set boundaries on day one (especially on how to register a complaint and how employee&#8217;s should treat one another); the fact that this was a concern over a misdemeanor offense that has balooned into a &#8220;hostile workplace&#8221; claim; the fact that recent laws have placed the employer in the position as an enforcement arm of the government for I-9&#8242;s, smoking bans, etc.; or the fact that many forms of boorish and discriminatory behavior are not covered by current law because those targeted (smokers, homosexuals, etc.) are not defined as a &#8220;protected class?&#8221;</p>
<p>Rather than personal attacks, I would be interested to know what you disagree with and why.  Of course, if you prefer to remain vague, rely on personal attacks and use big words like &#8220;pontificate&#8221; to vent your feelings, then I will understand.  I mean, I posted over a month ago, so I wonder what has gotten your dander up today.</p>
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		<title>By: JG</title>
		<link>http://www.hrblunders.com/man-says-he-was-fired-for-ratting-out-smokers/comment-page-1/#comment-12338</link>
		<dc:creator>JG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:50:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hrblunders.com/?p=1155#comment-12338</guid>
		<description>mike R- Once again your deductive reasoning ability falls well short of the mark. The number of reply&#039;s to your comments  hopefully will deter individuals from relying on your blatantly unqualified rhetoric. Most times the dialog and comments from this website are professional.   Occasionally we have to read through as someone uses this forum to pontificate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mike R- Once again your deductive reasoning ability falls well short of the mark. The number of reply&#8217;s to your comments  hopefully will deter individuals from relying on your blatantly unqualified rhetoric. Most times the dialog and comments from this website are professional.   Occasionally we have to read through as someone uses this forum to pontificate.</p>
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		<title>By: mike R</title>
		<link>http://www.hrblunders.com/man-says-he-was-fired-for-ratting-out-smokers/comment-page-1/#comment-12324</link>
		<dc:creator>mike R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 14:43:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hrblunders.com/?p=1155#comment-12324</guid>
		<description>To JG:

Thanks for your vague and unsupported comment.  

It made me reread my comments to try to understand your point of view.  I am confused as to what interpretation you find &quot;interesting&quot; or what comments that are &quot;not well founded.&quot; 

Your comment concerning brushing up on &quot;Intro to HR&quot; gave me the impression that you are still attending school and are still learning how to do this people business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To JG:</p>
<p>Thanks for your vague and unsupported comment.  </p>
<p>It made me reread my comments to try to understand your point of view.  I am confused as to what interpretation you find &#8220;interesting&#8221; or what comments that are &#8220;not well founded.&#8221; </p>
<p>Your comment concerning brushing up on &#8220;Intro to HR&#8221; gave me the impression that you are still attending school and are still learning how to do this people business.</p>
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		<title>By: JG</title>
		<link>http://www.hrblunders.com/man-says-he-was-fired-for-ratting-out-smokers/comment-page-1/#comment-12220</link>
		<dc:creator>JG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:05:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hrblunders.com/?p=1155#comment-12220</guid>
		<description>mike R - Your comments are not well founded. I think you might want to brush up on your &quot;Introduction to HR&quot; skills. You have an interesting interpretation of laws, rules and regulations as they apply to Human Resources.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mike R &#8211; Your comments are not well founded. I think you might want to brush up on your &#8220;Introduction to HR&#8221; skills. You have an interesting interpretation of laws, rules and regulations as they apply to Human Resources.</p>
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		<title>By: mike R</title>
		<link>http://www.hrblunders.com/man-says-he-was-fired-for-ratting-out-smokers/comment-page-1/#comment-10158</link>
		<dc:creator>mike R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Feb 2009 20:51:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hrblunders.com/?p=1155#comment-10158</guid>
		<description>I agree that there is a lot of boarish behavior out there.  I find that both employees could have handled the situation better.  However, it doesn&#039;t look like they brought their concerns and issues to the company management. 

The laws you mentioned don&#039;t apply to the employees, but the employers.  The employer needs to ensure that there is no discrimination in employment actions based on race, gender, ethnicity, religion, age, military affiliation, or disability.  Beyond that, the employer needs to ensure that there is no pattern of behavior that would create a &quot;hostile&quot; environment for any protected group. 

I find that the one employee who violated the statute and smoked in the break room wrong.  I think his childish way of communicating that he wants the other employee to let it drop, by sending a monkey and noose is inappropriate.  I also consider the fellow&#039;s filing a complaint with the state health department and not going to managment just as inappropriate.  He doesn&#039;t appear to be  trying to get compliance with the smoking law.  He appears to be saying that he is RIGHT and he doesn&#039;t care if the company suffers bad press, loses business, or that the other employee is demeaned and ridiculed over a small mistake that amounts to a parking ticket.  Self centered individuals like this are often shunned in the work place.  For him to say he was fired for his race and not because of his own boarish behavior which started this situation is an inappropriate use of the legal system.  

Businesses have a business need to ensure fairness and that employees work together effectively.  The codes you mention affect only a select few who are considered in a &quot;protected class&quot; and relates to how the employer conducts business.  Some people are discriminated against every day, but they do not enjoy any government protection because the majority in our scociety disagree with their personal behavior; smokers, overweight people, gays and lesbians, etc.  It wasn&#039;t so long ago when society felt that women and African Americans had less rights than everyone else.   Long before any laws were passed, businesses had to deal with these issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that there is a lot of boarish behavior out there.  I find that both employees could have handled the situation better.  However, it doesn&#8217;t look like they brought their concerns and issues to the company management. </p>
<p>The laws you mentioned don&#8217;t apply to the employees, but the employers.  The employer needs to ensure that there is no discrimination in employment actions based on race, gender, ethnicity, religion, age, military affiliation, or disability.  Beyond that, the employer needs to ensure that there is no pattern of behavior that would create a &#8220;hostile&#8221; environment for any protected group. </p>
<p>I find that the one employee who violated the statute and smoked in the break room wrong.  I think his childish way of communicating that he wants the other employee to let it drop, by sending a monkey and noose is inappropriate.  I also consider the fellow&#8217;s filing a complaint with the state health department and not going to managment just as inappropriate.  He doesn&#8217;t appear to be  trying to get compliance with the smoking law.  He appears to be saying that he is RIGHT and he doesn&#8217;t care if the company suffers bad press, loses business, or that the other employee is demeaned and ridiculed over a small mistake that amounts to a parking ticket.  Self centered individuals like this are often shunned in the work place.  For him to say he was fired for his race and not because of his own boarish behavior which started this situation is an inappropriate use of the legal system.  </p>
<p>Businesses have a business need to ensure fairness and that employees work together effectively.  The codes you mention affect only a select few who are considered in a &#8220;protected class&#8221; and relates to how the employer conducts business.  Some people are discriminated against every day, but they do not enjoy any government protection because the majority in our scociety disagree with their personal behavior; smokers, overweight people, gays and lesbians, etc.  It wasn&#8217;t so long ago when society felt that women and African Americans had less rights than everyone else.   Long before any laws were passed, businesses had to deal with these issues.</p>
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		<title>By: Hbenion</title>
		<link>http://www.hrblunders.com/man-says-he-was-fired-for-ratting-out-smokers/comment-page-1/#comment-10152</link>
		<dc:creator>Hbenion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Feb 2009 17:49:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hrblunders.com/?p=1155#comment-10152</guid>
		<description>Potential here for somebody to ride out the recession, depending on how much is left after the attorney gets paid.  As a number of others commented, though, the facts will determine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Potential here for somebody to ride out the recession, depending on how much is left after the attorney gets paid.  As a number of others commented, though, the facts will determine.</p>
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		<title>By: Barb</title>
		<link>http://www.hrblunders.com/man-says-he-was-fired-for-ratting-out-smokers/comment-page-1/#comment-10150</link>
		<dc:creator>Barb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Feb 2009 16:58:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hrblunders.com/?p=1155#comment-10150</guid>
		<description>I agree with Judy, the behavior with the monkey is totally unacceptable, and should not be tolerated. Too often these situations are not addressed by supervisors. I also agree that the details in the article are not exactly clear regarding any violence. But the harassment is clear and should be stopped.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Judy, the behavior with the monkey is totally unacceptable, and should not be tolerated. Too often these situations are not addressed by supervisors. I also agree that the details in the article are not exactly clear regarding any violence. But the harassment is clear and should be stopped.</p>
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		<title>By: Judy Buckley</title>
		<link>http://www.hrblunders.com/man-says-he-was-fired-for-ratting-out-smokers/comment-page-1/#comment-9983</link>
		<dc:creator>Judy Buckley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 22:52:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hrblunders.com/?p=1155#comment-9983</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know about your state, but there is a federal law (Title VII of the Civil Rights Code) and a California law (Equal Employment Opportunity) regarding nondiscrimination in employment. I believe if an employee insults another re race, color, creed (all the protected classes - and we are all members of one or another) that is against the law. It creates a hostile work environment. I know that term generally is used in the context of sexual harassment - but I believe a person is protected by law from that kind of behavior on thepart of co-workers. One instance may not be enough to carry a case, but pervasive behavior and management does not step in - that wouldn&#039;t be looked at kindly by a jury. The undertone I get from someof these comments is that people will think what they want (and apparently, say and do what they want) and authority can&#039;t stop them. Maybe authority can&#039;t make them change their ideas, but can make the this type of expression of those ideas pretty uncomfortable for the people acting like bigots. Nobody should have to tolerate this behavior in the workplace. Period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know about your state, but there is a federal law (Title VII of the Civil Rights Code) and a California law (Equal Employment Opportunity) regarding nondiscrimination in employment. I believe if an employee insults another re race, color, creed (all the protected classes &#8211; and we are all members of one or another) that is against the law. It creates a hostile work environment. I know that term generally is used in the context of sexual harassment &#8211; but I believe a person is protected by law from that kind of behavior on thepart of co-workers. One instance may not be enough to carry a case, but pervasive behavior and management does not step in &#8211; that wouldn&#8217;t be looked at kindly by a jury. The undertone I get from someof these comments is that people will think what they want (and apparently, say and do what they want) and authority can&#8217;t stop them. Maybe authority can&#8217;t make them change their ideas, but can make the this type of expression of those ideas pretty uncomfortable for the people acting like bigots. Nobody should have to tolerate this behavior in the workplace. Period.</p>
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