Comments on: Can being too good at your job get you fired? http://www.hrblunders.com/can-being-too-good-at-your-job-get-you-fired/ The worst mistakes, catastrophes, and near-misses Sat, 24 Jul 2010 21:23:25 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc By: John Martin http://www.hrblunders.com/can-being-too-good-at-your-job-get-you-fired/comment-page-4/#comment-14456 John Martin Sat, 02 May 2009 02:47:59 +0000 http://www.hrblunders.com/?p=1117#comment-14456 Well, I believe that the firing of the coach was inappropriate and the coach should seek legal counsel regarding a potential Wrongful Termination Lawsuit. I think that a court would find (based on the facts and the available public information on this coach and school given) that this was a Wrongful Termination. I don't particularly like what happened including the 100 -0 score, nor do I like that the Headmaster wrote an apology publicly in the press. He could have contacted the school by letter, personally or by phone however he chose to air it publicly without considering his team or coach. And I think that the coach should have discussed his and his team's feelings about this apology before he publicly air his disagreement with the Headmaster's public apology. John Martin, AAMS,AWMA,CLTCA,CRPC,DIA,HIA,HIPPAP,LTCP,LUTCF,MHP,RFC,RHU Well, I believe that the firing of the coach was inappropriate and the coach should seek legal counsel regarding a potential Wrongful Termination Lawsuit. I think that a court would find (based on the facts and the available public information on this coach and school given) that this was a Wrongful Termination. I don’t particularly like what happened including the 100 -0 score, nor do I like that the Headmaster wrote an apology publicly in the press. He could have contacted the school by letter, personally or by phone however he chose to air it publicly without considering his team or coach. And I think that the coach should have discussed his and his team’s feelings about this apology before he publicly air his disagreement with the Headmaster’s public apology.

John Martin, AAMS,AWMA,CLTCA,CRPC,DIA,HIA,HIPPAP,LTCP,LUTCF,MHP,RFC,RHU

]]> By: Tracy http://www.hrblunders.com/can-being-too-good-at-your-job-get-you-fired/comment-page-4/#comment-10898 Tracy Sat, 21 Feb 2009 02:31:08 +0000 http://www.hrblunders.com/?p=1117#comment-10898 Sports are competitive. If a team doesn’t want to lose, then they shouldn't play the game. There will be times in life when you get beat bad like that, and you have to find a way to live with it. Sports are competitive. If a team doesn’t want to lose, then they shouldn’t play the game. There will be times in life when you get beat bad like that, and you have to find a way to live with it.

]]> By: RJL http://www.hrblunders.com/can-being-too-good-at-your-job-get-you-fired/comment-page-4/#comment-9759 RJL Tue, 03 Feb 2009 15:31:54 +0000 http://www.hrblunders.com/?p=1117#comment-9759 I think we've gone into overtime on this string. Time to move onto something of greater merit. I think we’ve gone into overtime on this string. Time to move onto something of greater merit.

]]> By: Shyann http://www.hrblunders.com/can-being-too-good-at-your-job-get-you-fired/comment-page-4/#comment-9757 Shyann Tue, 03 Feb 2009 14:50:59 +0000 http://www.hrblunders.com/?p=1117#comment-9757 To Hockey Coach, Where were you days ago when this subject was getting out of hand. Well said!! You sound like a great coach. To Hockey Coach, Where were you days ago when this subject was getting out of hand. Well said!! You sound like a great coach.

]]> By: Brian http://www.hrblunders.com/can-being-too-good-at-your-job-get-you-fired/comment-page-4/#comment-9754 Brian Tue, 03 Feb 2009 13:45:47 +0000 http://www.hrblunders.com/?p=1117#comment-9754 I swore I wouldn't check back on this thread (seriously, how did liberals vs conservatives come up?). But alas, Hockey coach brings some reason, thank you. I STILL can't find verification as to whether or not the Covenant Coach was pressing into the fourth quarter. That's really my only issue. I have played and coached. And I've been on both sides of a lop-sided game. I don't care about winning or losing, just being able to teach the kids something. If you badly out-man another team, you learn very little by preventing them from crossing half court. And his statement of his "beliefs and values not allowing him to run up the score" rings hollow to me. I watched a rec basketball game last week. One of the coaches knew before the game started (by watching warm ups) that he clearly had a better team. Since he had 11 players, he took one of his better starters and relegated them to the 2nd team. After the first quarter the score was 23-3, so he stopped pressing the guards at half court. After half time, he had his remaining two best players passed the ball off to the other players rather than shooting. And of course they were chucking 3 pointers, because they normally won't get that chance. They began passing the ball 5 or 6 times before shooting. You could see the happiness in the eyes of the kids who normally don't get to score. I didn't get a chance to, but I wanted to congratulate that coach after the game. Sounds like Hockey Coach handled it the same way, though I will say this. There may not be another league available for the losing team in this story. And if they haven't won in four years, isn't that a clue to Coach Grimes as to what's about to happen? I swore I wouldn’t check back on this thread (seriously, how did liberals vs conservatives come up?). But alas, Hockey coach brings some reason, thank you. I STILL can’t find verification as to whether or not the Covenant Coach was pressing into the fourth quarter. That’s really my only issue.
I have played and coached. And I’ve been on both sides of a lop-sided game. I don’t care about winning or losing, just being able to teach the kids something. If you badly out-man another team, you learn very little by preventing them from crossing half court. And his statement of his “beliefs and values not allowing him to run up the score” rings hollow to me.
I watched a rec basketball game last week. One of the coaches knew before the game started (by watching warm ups) that he clearly had a better team. Since he had 11 players, he took one of his better starters and relegated them to the 2nd team. After the first quarter the score was 23-3, so he stopped pressing the guards at half court. After half time, he had his remaining two best players passed the ball off to the other players rather than shooting. And of course they were chucking 3 pointers, because they normally won’t get that chance. They began passing the ball 5 or 6 times before shooting. You could see the happiness in the eyes of the kids who normally don’t get to score. I didn’t get a chance to, but I wanted to congratulate that coach after the game. Sounds like Hockey Coach handled it the same way, though I will say this. There may not be another league available for the losing team in this story. And if they haven’t won in four years, isn’t that a clue to Coach Grimes as to what’s about to happen?

]]> By: Ed http://www.hrblunders.com/can-being-too-good-at-your-job-get-you-fired/comment-page-4/#comment-9689 Ed Mon, 02 Feb 2009 21:44:47 +0000 http://www.hrblunders.com/?p=1117#comment-9689 :) (26) :)

(26)

]]> By: Hockey Coach http://www.hrblunders.com/can-being-too-good-at-your-job-get-you-fired/comment-page-4/#comment-9688 Hockey Coach Mon, 02 Feb 2009 21:26:51 +0000 http://www.hrblunders.com/?p=1117#comment-9688 First of all, it appears we are all reacting to an incident based on incomplete facts. Have you all read all sides of this story before rushing to judgment? I did a little research on the issue and read Coach Grimes' response as well statements made by others. With less than 10 players on Grimes' team, he had no choice but to play some of his better players throughout the entire game. He claims he stopped pressing the team early on. Had Coach Grimes kept ALL of his starters in for most of the game or kept up a full-court press on them - then he was wrong for what he did. But there appears to be very conflicting stories about what actually happened at the game. My guess is that Coach Grimes' claims are accurate. Did the losing coach deny any of Grimes' claims? The reporter of the story - that brought this incident to our eyes - was not at the game and only followed up on the story the following week. Only a video tape will give conclusive proof of what went on. Once this was made public and the coach was being taken to task by people all over the nation, I feel that he had a right to respond. Regardless, I am not sure he should be the only person to be chided - and certainly not fired. This team has been winless for 4 years. Where was the league in setting up some guidelines to deal with this special needs team? Where was the losing school's athletic department? Why should the winning coach be blamed when nobody else did anything to mitigate the situation BEFORE the game (or season)? Where are the parents of the losing school? How can they let their school's administration subject their kids to this year after year? Did Coach Grime's boss or the opposing coach have a chat with him before the game? There may have been better ways for Coach Grimes to handle the game - but it's not only up to the opposing coach to come up with them. Don't expect an opposing coach to be the knight in shining armor when NOBODY on the other side of the equation even met him halfway. HS, College, and Pro levels all have different leagues to keep things competitive. This small school needs find such a league. If none exists, they are doing their students a grave disservice by being blown out every single game of every single season. If there are no alternatives, they should consider using club-hour, extra-curricular activities, and other less formal methods to teach the kids how to play team sports and to teach them the value of hard work, dedication, training, and success. I am sure every other team in the league would agree to participate in a uniquely structured tournament to include this team - but don't expect the opposing coaches to solve another school's challenges by themselves. Anybody who coaches knows that it is better to play a sport 'correctly' and badly beat a weaker opponent than to utterly humiliate them by winning while not playing the sport correctly at all. If their league does not have a mercy rule and does not provide the refs with the ability to call a game when it gets out of hand, then a winning coach has no choice but to play the game to the end. Playing the game the wrong way does not teach anything positive to either side. Coach Grimes could not swap out his best players - he did not have enough himself. Was he to beat this team 70-20 and only play 3 players against their 5? That would have been worse. I am a hockey coach and there are schools in my division that consistently field weak squads. A few months ago we played against one of them and the score became 4-0 after 2 minutes. So we broke up our starting lines and played the bench players - and the score was 6-0 after 1 period. So then we benched all of our better players and anybody who had scored a goal was told that they could no longer take more shots on net and my weaker players made it 10-0 after 2 periods. In the 3rd period, we played our offensemen on defense and vice versa and the game ended at 15-1, the hockey equivalent of 100-0. I did not like the game - my better players were not gaining anything from it and the weaker players were getting excited about getting points for sub-standard effort. However, the alternative would have been to hold on to the puck and play 'keep away' or not touch the puck at all - two alternatives that would have been more humiliating for the opposition. Last week, I fielded a decimated team against one of the top teams in the league. We lost 10-0 and played a good game. The opposition did not show us any mercy - and I did not expect to receive any. Their top players were on the ice even towards the end. Afterwards, my boys felt good about their effort. Had they not played hard, it would have been 30-0. So we learn our lessons, move on, and hopefully grow from the experience. That's life. And nobody complained afterwards. First of all, it appears we are all reacting to an incident based on incomplete facts. Have you all read all sides of this story before rushing to judgment? I did a little research on the issue and read Coach Grimes’ response as well statements made by others. With less than 10 players on Grimes’ team, he had no choice but to play some of his better players throughout the entire game. He claims he stopped pressing the team early on. Had Coach Grimes kept ALL of his starters in for most of the game or kept up a full-court press on them – then he was wrong for what he did. But there appears to be very conflicting stories about what actually happened at the game. My guess is that Coach Grimes’ claims are accurate. Did the losing coach deny any of Grimes’ claims? The reporter of the story – that brought this incident to our eyes – was not at the game and only followed up on the story the following week. Only a video tape will give conclusive proof of what went on.

Once this was made public and the coach was being taken to task by people all over the nation, I feel that he had a right to respond. Regardless, I am not sure he should be the only person to be chided – and certainly not fired.

This team has been winless for 4 years. Where was the league in setting up some guidelines to deal with this special needs team? Where was the losing school’s athletic department? Why should the winning coach be blamed when nobody else did anything to mitigate the situation BEFORE the game (or season)? Where are the parents of the losing school? How can they let their school’s administration subject their kids to this year after year? Did Coach Grime’s boss or the opposing coach have a chat with him before the game? There may have been better ways for Coach Grimes to handle the game – but it’s not only up to the opposing coach to come up with them. Don’t expect an opposing coach to be the knight in shining armor when NOBODY on the other side of the equation even met him halfway.

HS, College, and Pro levels all have different leagues to keep things competitive. This small school needs find such a league. If none exists, they are doing their students a grave disservice by being blown out every single game of every single season. If there are no alternatives, they should consider using club-hour, extra-curricular activities, and other less formal methods to teach the kids how to play team sports and to teach them the value of hard work, dedication, training, and success. I am sure every other team in the league would agree to participate in a uniquely structured tournament to include this team – but don’t expect the opposing coaches to solve another school’s challenges by themselves.

Anybody who coaches knows that it is better to play a sport ‘correctly’ and badly beat a weaker opponent than to utterly humiliate them by winning while not playing the sport correctly at all. If their league does not have a mercy rule and does not provide the refs with the ability to call a game when it gets out of hand, then a winning coach has no choice but to play the game to the end. Playing the game the wrong way does not teach anything positive to either side. Coach Grimes could not swap out his best players – he did not have enough himself. Was he to beat this team 70-20 and only play 3 players against their 5? That would have been worse.

I am a hockey coach and there are schools in my division that consistently field weak squads. A few months ago we played against one of them and the score became 4-0 after 2 minutes. So we broke up our starting lines and played the bench players – and the score was 6-0 after 1 period. So then we benched all of our better players and anybody who had scored a goal was told that they could no longer take more shots on net and my weaker players made it 10-0 after 2 periods. In the 3rd period, we played our offensemen on defense and vice versa and the game ended at 15-1, the hockey equivalent of 100-0. I did not like the game – my better players were not gaining anything from it and the weaker players were getting excited about getting points for sub-standard effort. However, the alternative would have been to hold on to the puck and play ‘keep away’ or not touch the puck at all – two alternatives that would have been more humiliating for the opposition.

Last week, I fielded a decimated team against one of the top teams in the league. We lost 10-0 and played a good game. The opposition did not show us any mercy – and I did not expect to receive any. Their top players were on the ice even towards the end. Afterwards, my boys felt good about their effort. Had they not played hard, it would have been 30-0. So we learn our lessons, move on, and hopefully grow from the experience. That’s life. And nobody complained afterwards.

]]> By: Captain Nice http://www.hrblunders.com/can-being-too-good-at-your-job-get-you-fired/comment-page-4/#comment-9677 Captain Nice Mon, 02 Feb 2009 19:11:29 +0000 http://www.hrblunders.com/?p=1117#comment-9677 At this point there had been 167 replies in this thread. A total of 75 people contributed to the thread. Three people contributed 57 (34.13%) of all the replies. Name Count Percent ED 25 14.97% Cindy 20 11.98% Private Party 12 7.19% mike 4 2.40% Ray 4 2.40% RT 4 2.40% dritchie 3 1.80% HR Dude 3 1.80% John 3 1.80% Keith 3 1.80% Lorna 3 1.80% opinionated 3 1.80% Pat 3 1.80% Allen 2 1.20% Arlene 2 1.20% Beatty 2 1.20% Brian 2 1.20% Dan 2 1.20% Don 2 1.20% Forist 2 1.20% Jeff 2 1.20% Jenny 2 1.20% Jodi 2 1.20% Johnny S. 2 1.20% Phyllis C-Memphis 2 1.20% Rich,SPHR 2 1.20% SC 2 1.20% Sharon 2 1.20% Susan 2 1.20% Albert Roark 1 0.60% Anitra 1 0.60% annmarie 1 0.60% Baltimore Reader 1 0.60% Brit 1 0.60% Captain Nice 1 0.60% Carol 1 0.60% Carol Simpson 1 0.60% Christian says 1 0.60% coach mike 1 0.60% Dan Kepple 1 0.60% Dealer In Vegas 1 0.60% Donna C 1 0.60% dozer 1 0.60% Frances 1 0.60% Gina 1 0.60% Give me a break 1 0.60% Grandpa Mike 1 0.60% Hbenion 1 0.60% Heather 1 0.60% Helen 1 0.60% JAHRO 1 0.60% Janet 1 0.60% JAS 1 0.60% Jerry 1 0.60% Katherine 1 0.60% Kathy 1 0.60% LEU 1 0.60% Linda 1 0.60% Marie 1 0.60% Marquis 1 0.60% Marty 1 0.60% MOM OF TWINZ 1 0.60% NJ 1 0.60% PB-TEXAS SPHR 1 0.60% Peter 1 0.60% PGC 1 0.60% Rod 1 0.60% Rose 1 0.60% Settles 1 0.60% Shyann 1 0.60% Tiffany 1 0.60% Trace 1 0.60% TX Bureaucrat 1 0.60% Total 167 100.00% At this point there had been 167 replies in this thread. A total of 75 people contributed to the thread. Three people contributed 57 (34.13%) of all the replies.

Name Count Percent
ED 25 14.97%
Cindy 20 11.98%
Private Party 12 7.19%
mike 4 2.40%
Ray 4 2.40%
RT 4 2.40%
dritchie 3 1.80%
HR Dude 3 1.80%
John 3 1.80%
Keith 3 1.80%
Lorna 3 1.80%
opinionated 3 1.80%
Pat 3 1.80%
Allen 2 1.20%
Arlene 2 1.20%
Beatty 2 1.20%
Brian 2 1.20%
Dan 2 1.20%
Don 2 1.20%
Forist 2 1.20%
Jeff 2 1.20%
Jenny 2 1.20%
Jodi 2 1.20%
Johnny S. 2 1.20%
Phyllis C-Memphis 2 1.20%
Rich,SPHR 2 1.20%
SC 2 1.20%
Sharon 2 1.20%
Susan 2 1.20%
Albert Roark 1 0.60%
Anitra 1 0.60%
annmarie 1 0.60%
Baltimore Reader 1 0.60%
Brit 1 0.60%
Captain Nice 1 0.60%
Carol 1 0.60%
Carol Simpson 1 0.60%
Christian says 1 0.60%
coach mike 1 0.60%
Dan Kepple 1 0.60%
Dealer In Vegas 1 0.60%
Donna C 1 0.60%
dozer 1 0.60%
Frances 1 0.60%
Gina 1 0.60%
Give me a break 1 0.60%
Grandpa Mike 1 0.60%
Hbenion 1 0.60%
Heather 1 0.60%
Helen 1 0.60%
JAHRO 1 0.60%
Janet 1 0.60%
JAS 1 0.60%
Jerry 1 0.60%
Katherine 1 0.60%
Kathy 1 0.60%
LEU 1 0.60%
Linda 1 0.60%
Marie 1 0.60%
Marquis 1 0.60%
Marty 1 0.60%
MOM OF TWINZ 1 0.60%
NJ 1 0.60%
PB-TEXAS SPHR 1 0.60%
Peter 1 0.60%
PGC 1 0.60%
Rod 1 0.60%
Rose 1 0.60%
Settles 1 0.60%
Shyann 1 0.60%
Tiffany 1 0.60%
Trace 1 0.60%
TX Bureaucrat 1 0.60%

Total 167 100.00%

]]> By: Donna C http://www.hrblunders.com/can-being-too-good-at-your-job-get-you-fired/comment-page-4/#comment-9660 Donna C Mon, 02 Feb 2009 17:44:06 +0000 http://www.hrblunders.com/?p=1117#comment-9660 This thread of comments is debating an issue that is irrelevant (however, the article header is misleading). The crux is that when an employer, whether that is a school, corporation, etc., issues an "official" statement and an individual employee sends a very public message that contradicts the offical line, it is a given that some type of discipline will follow. I find it hard to believe the coach could have been too surprised by the action taken. This thread of comments is debating an issue that is irrelevant (however, the article header is misleading). The crux is that when an employer, whether that is a school, corporation, etc., issues an “official” statement and an individual employee sends a very public message that contradicts the offical line, it is a given that some type of discipline will follow. I find it hard to believe the coach could have been too surprised by the action taken.

]]> By: Grandpa Mike http://www.hrblunders.com/can-being-too-good-at-your-job-get-you-fired/comment-page-4/#comment-9658 Grandpa Mike Mon, 02 Feb 2009 17:26:13 +0000 http://www.hrblunders.com/?p=1117#comment-9658 I'm a 64 year old grandfather of six. My son played soccer only one year pre-teen, wasn't very good at it, and dropped out because his coach was focused on winning at any cost. My two daughters played active league soccer from under-8's to under-18's, with supportive coaches who realized that their job was to help kids grow, & to develop confidence, teamwork, and character. Winning was nice (which was most of the time) but more immportant was making the kids "winners" whatever the score -- not beating up on the kids, whether their team or the others. I was a referee for both boys and girls soccer the last five years my girls played. Mean kids were seldom a problem - I never had to eject (red card) a player over my five year "career" -- can't say the same for some coaches and parents. One of the teams in our league was fron the state School for the Deaf which is located in our town, & I had the pleasure & honor of refereeing a number of their games against non-special needs kids over that period. I've also raised a special needs grandson whose parents were unable to care for him. All of which is to say, I've likeln had more experience dealing with kids, including special needs kids and their relationships with the "normal" world, than most of the commentators. The coach who was fired, from my perspective, demonstrated two fatal flaws -- He forgot (if he ever knew) that the job of a youth coach is first, to develop character; second, to develop skills; and third - but in that order - to win games. This would especially be the case in a religious school, which is based on values hopefully a bit nhigher than the rest of society. Second, his open challenge to the school administration was an inexcuysable breach of loyalty to his employer, Both the school, the kids, and the game are far better without him. I’m a 64 year old grandfather of six. My son played soccer only one year pre-teen, wasn’t very good at it, and dropped out because his coach was focused on winning at any cost. My two daughters played active league soccer from under-8′s to under-18′s, with supportive coaches who realized that their job was to help kids grow, & to develop confidence, teamwork, and character. Winning was nice (which was most of the time) but more immportant was making the kids “winners” whatever the score — not beating up on the kids, whether their team or the others.

I was a referee for both boys and girls soccer the last five years my girls played. Mean kids were seldom a problem – I never had to eject (red card) a player over my five year “career” — can’t say the same for some coaches and parents.

One of the teams in our league was fron the state School for the Deaf which is located in our town, & I had the pleasure & honor of refereeing a number of their games against non-special needs kids over that period. I’ve also raised a special needs grandson whose parents were unable to care for him. All of which is to say, I’ve likeln had more experience dealing with kids, including special needs kids and their relationships with the “normal” world, than most of the commentators.

The coach who was fired, from my perspective, demonstrated two fatal flaws — He forgot (if he ever knew) that the job of a youth coach is first, to develop character; second, to develop skills; and third – but in that order – to win games. This would especially be the case in a religious school, which is based on values hopefully a bit nhigher than the rest of society. Second, his open challenge to the school administration was an inexcuysable breach of loyalty to his employer, Both the school, the kids, and the game are far better without him.

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